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Aug. 18, 2023
Qualified or Certified With Guest Michael Caviness
We want to introduce you to Michael Caviness a long time friend of the show who we meet as a one time couch surfer during a disaster and is now also director of fire and emergency services at Rowan Cabarrus Community College. nIn this discussion Michael helps us understand the importance of education and training of firefighters. We will learn how in some situations a qualified person is much more valuable to a fire department than a certified one. Join us as we see how the community college system helps shape the volunteer fire service and prepares firefighters with the skills they need to be effective.
This episode explores the vital need for health and wellness within the fire service, as well as practical skills that can be easily procured using data-driven decision-making to ensure the best possible outcomes. We also discuss the challenges of delivering pertinent training to both seasoned and new firefighters when they often operate within the same organization.
Lastly, we focus on a topic that often goes unaddressed - the mental health of first responders. One of our hosts, Eric, shares his personal story, emphasizing the importance of open dialogue about mental health. We also explore the role community colleges can play in supporting health and wellness, through programs like the one at Rowan Cabarrus Community College. As we wrap up, we invite you to join our mission in promoting mental health awareness among first responders, and, in a lighter note, we encourage you to get involved by sponsoring a dad joke!
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Transcript
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You are listening to All Clear Firefighter Helping Wellness Podcast today, qualified or certified, with our guest Michael Kavanis.
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I'm Travis, got Eric over there.
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How.
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You doing Eric Good, how?
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are you?
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I am doing spectacular and today we have a very special guest with us.
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We have Michael Kavanis from Roe Anchor Bears Community College.
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How are you doing today, Michael?
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I'm doing well.
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You guys must need people really bad.
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Do you?
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need people really bad.
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You've got a bad person on with you.
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Well, my dad was our first guest, so we have been kind of bumping along the bottom, but in all seriousness, we're very honored to have you here.
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Any time we can have somebody that's willing to come and share some time with us, we'll take it.
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So I will start off by saying that Michael is a very good friend of the podcast.
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I consider him a friend, and I think Eric, you kind of like him too or kind of know him or something.
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Oh, absolutely me and uh.
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You took me more, I took him out once I took him out once it's homeless.
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Alright.
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Well, why don't we just start off right there and talk about Michael being homeless and how Eric helped him out, and then maybe you can tell us a little bit about yourself along the way there too, michael, before we start?
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What was that 2018?
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I was uh 2008,.
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Uh, yeah, 2018.
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Yeah, the boy went to.
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Carterette County and was sleeping, trying to sleep in the corner of a room of Newport Fire Station, and this guy walks in and was like what are you doing?
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I've got a whole house to myself.
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You can have a bedroom, a bed, and he had air conditioning.
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Yes, and at first Michael didn't want to come to the house with me, and so another twist to that story is that his twin brother was part of a task force there in the fire station too.
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And, for the record, I've met his twin brother and they get confused quite frequently.
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Oh yeah, and uh.
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So I go out to the truck bay and I see his brother and I see, go in there and tell your brother that you guys are taking the engine back to my house, seeing that he's not planning to go.
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And that's really all it took.
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Michael came out and he said can I still go to your house?
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I said absolutely.
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What did you do?
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Spent like three days at my place, I think Two or three days, something like that I was there.
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six, five, well, five at your place.
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Oh, okay.
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More than what I thought but uh, yeah, that was a good visit.
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Wish it had been under better Circumstances, but I hope we made you a little more comfortable than that firehouse corner of the firehouse lifesavers.
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Hey, he is willing to come hang out with us.
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So obviously you must have done something right.
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That's right.
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And then beyond that, you know I've worked with Travis.
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I got to work with Travis with the cancer stuff.
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I had helped some with symposium.
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I've worked, you know, in my previous job with the dark side.
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I worked for OSFM and I handled line of duty, deaths and Probably probably the best part, best and worst part of my job.
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And so I got to work heavily with the cancer legislation not with the legislation, but when it came out we did interpretation, worked some of the first ones through.
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I know I worked the two at Concord.
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That happened Within a month of each other or something, just bam, bam, yep.
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And then with Eric, his peer support efforts I've referred several people there and I mean you are, you've been a godsend to the people I've sent.
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I Appreciate that Really do.
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And you know one of the things, michael, that that's important Eric is a part of this podcast because what he brings to the table for the, for the peer support and the mental health and wellness part of it and, like I said, you know the value of what he does.
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I've seen it and he's even helping to train our peer support team that we have that deal specifically with cancer.
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So, yeah, absolutely top shelf stuff.
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Well, I think what you're doing, you guys are doing a good thing here and Somebody needs to have this voice, needs to have this out here in North Carolina.
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I'm honored to be here.
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I know a joke to buy to begin with, but I'm honored to be here.
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I appreciate you taking the time, brother.
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Well, so we know that you work for OSFM.
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We know that you've slept at Eric's house before we know that you've.
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Got all kinds and you issue, and you also proctored my CFI Investigator exam too.
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So, yeah, you've been around a lot of us a while, but what are you doing these days?
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I know that you are at one of the local well, one of the community colleges here in North Carolina, rowan Cabarras, and it does have one of the largest fire education programs in the state, if not the largest.
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And why don't you tell us a little bit about what's going on with that these days and how that helps the fire service?
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So I am the director over fire and emergency services, so I also so I run the continuing education side.
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So in-service training, new certifications.
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Also, lee Ennis works with me and he runs the degree program for fire protection technology and emergency management, so he's I have two degree programs under me as well.
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I inherited this, and the reason why is Rowan Cabarras was was doing Fantastic things.
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I was the cert specialist and I'm in October of 2021.
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Roger McDaniel died.
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My predecessor, roger, was a big deal.
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He's well known in the state.
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He'd been doing this for 37 years.
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He had built a reputation of quality service and that's you know.
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That's what I inherited was.
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I inherited a top flight program and I'm just trying to continue it and that is I have.
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I inherited fantastic people.
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They're all doing.
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They do great work Lou Rogers, ray Allen, my staff, I just.
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Keith Rogers is another one I have.
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They are just rock stars in the fire world, so they make me look great.
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Well, you know rowan cabarras, you know for me, being in Concord, you guys are very important to our Process there.
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We get so much education from you guys.
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I know y'all are.
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I'm helping, like chief Ryerson, set up some classes for our Comed, for our investigator certifications and stuff like that.
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So you guys have your fingers and a lot of pies, so to speak, and you're doing a lot of educating.
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But the other thing I also know about rowan cabarras is you guys are surrounded by a lot of smaller Volunteer departments all the way up through Rowan County and you know that's pretty typical of what we see here in the state of North Carolina.
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So how does the community college system, not just Rowan Cabarrus but across the state, how does that play into helping firefighters, even say in small departments, and things such as that?
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So, no matter what size department you're in, you need training and it doesn't matter.
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So Rowan Cabarrus is odd.
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We're main campuses in Rowan County, near Salisbury or just outside of Salisbury, and there are like 40 agencies in Rowan County.
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It's a smaller county.
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Population-wise.
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Cabarrus County is a larger population.
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Almost two-thirds of the population between the two would live in Cabarrus County, so it's twice as large as Rowan but there's only 10 agencies because Concord's a big beast and it swallows up a lot of the geography, along with Canapalus and Harrisburg that are both in that county.
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So you have three large municipalities in there, plus Midland and some of the others, and it's just 10 agencies versus the 40.
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So when you get into Rowan County you get a lot more rural area out past Northwest of Salisbury especially, and it is.
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They need training, just like your best.
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Their training may look different.
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They may not need as much book knowledge, formal knowledge or whatever else you're looking for, as far as they're not going to need a lot of advanced certifications, because we all do.
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You know what is our objective?
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Well, some people's objective, you know, like any municipal department is almost always going to try to control to the room of origin.
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And then you have some places in very rural areas of the state where their job is to make sure the houses next door don't burn.
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So level of protection is very different within the state.
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And you know that.
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I think that's a very important point that you bring up because I know that when you look at some of these smaller departments, the members of the department literally live five minutes down the road from where the station is and they know pretty much everybody along the road and in the neighborhoods.
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So there's more of a sense of community a lot of times in the smaller departments.
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And you might have it say like a Concord where we've got 300 members and a fair number of them don't even live in Cabarrus County.
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So it's a different dynamic completely.
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But what types of deficits or differentials do you see between the training of, say, a larger department like Harrisburg or Concord and, say, a small volunteer department like you might encounter Rowan County or even actual Carter at out there where you are, eric?
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Well, something like you would mention.
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You had mentioned us working with Chief Ryerson on the investigations and the inspection stuff.
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That is something I don't need to teach at a at a West Row near.
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They don't have inspection duties, so it's going to be different, whereas you get municipalities and they need they have inspections, they have divisions, they have all these things.
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They are purely suppression out at those places.
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So that's what we deal with.
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So they need to know how to get water on the fire, they need to know how to get trucks there safely and they need to know how to operate the trucks to get the water on there and they need to know how to move water because we're a water supply and so that is what we key on, as opposed to the Concord rookies.
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When they, when they're learning stuff, you know they're, they're all the way up into TR and technical rescuer.
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They're learning advanced things that we would beyond the normal certification.
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Certification may not even be something that we talk about at a rural department, because they don't need formal certification.
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They need training If that makes sense they need.
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This is how you put a pumping gear.
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They don't need to know the hydraulics behind it so much as, like in.
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I expect your drivers at Concord or at a paid department, morhead City, whatever I expect them to be able to rattle off pump pressures to me.
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I expect other places to give me the.
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The hey set it at 100, 110 up down.
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Right and pretty much like catering to the needs of the individuals that come to you and are requesting training through the community college.
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You know, you know the area fairly well, obviously, and if you know, abc fire department comes in and says, hey, we, we want something on on rural water supply.
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You know, is it going to be a certification class or is it going to be, hey, we're going to send somebody out there and you guys are going to do rural water supply for a weekend and make sure that you got the basics down.
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As where other colleges, my personal experience is one size fits all, so to speak.
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Excuse me, as where you know, hey, we want water supply.
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Okay, we're going to get you the North Carolina driver operator certification program in your fire department.
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There's nothing.
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There are 58 community colleges in the state and there are 58 separate kingdoms and they all run completely different.
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And so what Roger set out and he listened to his people and he gives them exactly what they want, and that is that's what his goal was was, was this just?
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We call it radical customer service?
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Okay, you are really trying radical hospitality.
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We are trying to go overboard with what we're trying to give them, and that is if, if you've got all volunteers and they're not trying to get paid, they're not trying to go anywhere else.
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They don't need a certification, they need just that level of training that gets them to do the job, and so that's what we listen to.
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I don't I can't speak for the way other people do it.
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I did see a lot of colleges traveling the state, one of the big advantages I have I think this is the biggest advantage I have I saw community colleges that forgot who the customer was, and the customer you know, the fire service in North Carolina doesn't have to have community colleges.
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That is.
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That's one of the things that get lost in academia.
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They don't have to have us.
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We make sure.
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We remember that every day.
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So we try to make sure we're giving them what they need or what they want.
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You know, michael, I'd like to kind of give part of my own experience.
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You know, I kind of came into the fire service sideways, so to speak, because I got part of my training through Concord from my firefighter one or two, and then the rest of it I did with Rowan through Yall's program up there.
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And I remember my final live burns I did those up there at Yall's wonderful facility up there in Salisbury and I noticed that there were many different levels of knowledge that were in the group that I was with.
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There were some that were as green as could be and they were just surprised that they were at the point of a live burn.
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Then you had some folks that had a lot more knowledge because they work for municipal department.
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But Rowan was able to take care of the needs of each and every person and I greatly respect that because I know that's not an easy thing to do to have a curriculum to fit everybody.
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But nobody felt left out or left behind.
00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:19.822
So yeah, that's not just us you run.
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Every training officer runs into that exact problem.
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You've got a brand new person that doesn't know what a spanner wrench is and you've got a guy who's been there 28 years and knows everything there is to know about the fire service.
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And so how do you do training on Tuesday night training or whatever?
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How do you keep that relevant to both sides?
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I do think training in small departments when you're looking at that, especially a volunteer department, and you've got paid guys that come in use that expertise is what you try to do.
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Go in there and act like you know everything.
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You never will.
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And me as the training officer or whatever it is, I try to make sure I'm incorporating those people that do know.
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So I have I actually use all those that experience as teachers.
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So that's what I want to do.
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So set up almost like a mentor type of relationship between the old timers and the new guys so that everybody kind of comes out on a level playing field when it's done.
00:16:15.865 --> 00:16:24.466
Yes, and you know it's really interesting when you look at training in general.
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You know, since with the 10 or 12 years I've been in the fire service, I have seen myself a great shift away from being reactive in how you deal with things to being more proactive.
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And I know one of the things, for example and I'm going to go back to what we do the cancer education.
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Five, six, seven years ago nobody talked about it, but you know, chief Allen has invited our organization to come and teach, you know, y'all's rookie class and that's a great honor to be able to do that because there's value in that knowledge, and it's the same with mental health or whatever the case is.
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We've gone from being reactionary to being, you know, proactive and stuff.
00:17:06.384 --> 00:17:16.946
And how do you do you feel that that shift is really happening in the training in the fire service, or is that just something that I'm seeing?
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:20.890
No, no, it's very much within the fire.
00:17:20.890 --> 00:17:25.204
So the certification board and the fire rescue commission recognize these things.
00:17:25.204 --> 00:17:31.169
That's why you see the health and wellness that has become a required part of firefighter.
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They're trying.
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How do you get ahead of this?
00:17:32.665 --> 00:17:39.648
And then changes in standards, changes in the way we look at turnout gear.
00:17:39.648 --> 00:17:42.327
That's what I was going to interrupt you with, eric.
00:17:42.861 --> 00:17:48.347
When you first got in, and when I first got in, I was told not to wash my turnout gear.
00:17:48.347 --> 00:17:54.907
You wash all the water repellent off and now you wash it every fire.
00:17:54.907 --> 00:18:08.407
I mean, there are people at Salisbury fire washing their gear every week because they burn every week, and so it is, which is great that it's a shift and that paradigm shift did not happen overnight.
00:18:08.407 --> 00:18:15.890
That's 21 years for me and that's just a big difference and I appreciate that people are looking at that.
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They're thinking about it.
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I do.
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I'm a big believer in data, supported data, informed decision making, and I want to make sure.
00:18:28.143 --> 00:18:29.146
Hey, whatever you're doing.
00:18:29.146 --> 00:18:43.346
So this may be controversial but, like I don't know if clean cabs work, there's no data on it that we can try and people are trying to, but until there's data, there's nothing says that works.
00:18:43.346 --> 00:18:44.825
There's nothing says that helps.
00:18:44.825 --> 00:18:51.163
The studies now are showing that maybe your turnout gear is actually causing it.
00:18:51.163 --> 00:18:57.045
Again, not the fire stuff that you're getting as well, but stuff in your turnout gear.
00:18:58.229 --> 00:19:16.526
And so and it's interesting you mentioned that because when I talked to, like, dr Tom White, who works with us a lot and he'll be on the podcast at some point his whole thing is maybe you can't prove that clean cabs save lives, but what does it hurt to have a clean cab?
00:19:16.859 --> 00:19:21.067
It doesn't hurt anything to do that, so just do it because it helps.
00:19:21.067 --> 00:19:34.625
And then, conversely, when you start talking about, like we were talking about the PFAS and gear, that is such a new thing that the understanding of it is very limited.
00:19:34.625 --> 00:19:43.184
And like, when you talk to the guys up at NC State textile labs, they're like you know, each person reacts differently to the gear, to the PFAS that's in it.
00:19:43.184 --> 00:19:51.166
We all have a negative reaction to it on some level, but some people for example, he mentioned down in Wilmington how they have the exposure to what is it?
00:19:51.166 --> 00:20:03.804
The Gen X that was down there in the Cape Fear River that was being dumped in and how that you know, just a person that's exposed to that may have a higher level than one exposed to PFAS, you know, somewhere else in the state.
00:20:03.804 --> 00:20:10.748
So it's really interesting that you know you have to have data to drive it, but sometimes we have to kind of go on faith.
00:20:13.365 --> 00:20:14.027
And I do.
00:20:14.027 --> 00:20:15.932
I agree with if you have the resources.
00:20:15.932 --> 00:20:22.048
So you look at, you know I'm I don't know about five miles from the border of Concord.
00:20:22.048 --> 00:20:24.287
Concord has the resources for that.
00:20:24.287 --> 00:20:28.529
Enigble does not have enough money to buy me two sets of gear.
00:20:28.529 --> 00:20:41.467
So whenever I go to wash my gear, I'm out of commission and as a volunteer you know that's fine clean cabs, bagging your gear, taking it, sending it off to be washed or whatever.
00:20:41.467 --> 00:20:45.125
You have to look, you have to weigh that.
00:20:45.125 --> 00:20:45.768
That's what I'm saying.
00:20:45.768 --> 00:20:49.003
There's a cost there and looking at that.
00:20:49.003 --> 00:20:55.327
That's why data support, data driven, data informed I'm sorry that's the term data informed.
00:20:55.327 --> 00:20:57.826
You can't, you may not be able to rely on it completely.
00:20:57.826 --> 00:20:59.020
You may not.
00:20:59.020 --> 00:21:10.046
You may do some things that just make sense and you know Concord very proactive in the way that you handle gear Whenever you get done with a fire.
00:21:10.046 --> 00:21:13.489
There are policies, the way I've watched them do things.
00:21:13.489 --> 00:21:24.605
I don't know if you still do the Tyvek suit for the person washing gear, but it is all spelled out and I applaud those efforts.
00:21:26.423 --> 00:21:48.127
That's all in the Concord decontamination model which we teach and has been taught at the college, and I know that even you know your predecessor had gone through a lot of efforts with the upcoming facility up there that's being built on the fire grounds to have a decontamination zone so that it can adequately be processed.
00:21:48.127 --> 00:22:01.672
So training is massively important and just giving an example to these smaller departments and things like that goes a long way and teaching by how you guys teach at the community college is very important.
00:22:01.672 --> 00:22:05.566
So definitely a lot of work going on there and a lot of good stuff happening.
00:22:06.019 --> 00:22:20.769
And then when you get to mental health we're big believers in pushing that as well Like, okay, you're common, your rookie firefighter today is gonna be much more willing to talk about it.
00:22:20.769 --> 00:22:23.007
They're not being told suck it up.
00:22:23.007 --> 00:22:26.689
They're not being told don't talk about that.
00:22:26.689 --> 00:22:27.865
That's just part of the job.
00:22:27.865 --> 00:22:35.023
You need to just shut up and take it and I'm proud to say see that shift, people are talking about it.
00:22:35.023 --> 00:22:37.866
We are still getting suicides.
00:22:39.143 --> 00:22:39.730
Absolutely.
00:22:40.817 --> 00:22:41.097
And it's.
00:22:41.097 --> 00:22:55.964
It is a epidemic as far as that, but the the efforts to try and change that, the stigmatisms that go along with mental health Problems and everything we're slowly eroding away.
00:22:55.964 --> 00:22:59.260
Yeah, that's a that steered away from the iceberg.
00:22:59.260 --> 00:23:03.189
It takes a while for that to shift and we are shifting.
00:23:05.416 --> 00:23:06.801
I'm glad to be a part of that shift.
00:23:07.696 --> 00:23:11.207
Absolutely changing culture is very hard to do.
00:23:11.207 --> 00:23:26.515
Firefighters are very, very stubborn when it comes to tradition and culture, and that change is something that we've been fighting since the the outset, on both of our causes, and we're starting to see it pay off now.
00:23:26.515 --> 00:23:35.924
But when you have the buy-in from the chief officers we've talked about that before but also when you have the community colleges is like hey, you guys need to start thinking about mental health and things like that.
00:23:35.924 --> 00:23:38.494
It really goes a long way to start turning that ship.
00:23:38.494 --> 00:23:45.875
It's it's a bigger rudder, so to speak, to to turn the, to turn the ship when the community colleges and things like that get behind it.
00:23:45.894 --> 00:23:49.807
So it's a lot of commendation be done, a lot of work to be done.
00:23:49.807 --> 00:23:52.069
We're, my community is still is.
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