Bonus After Show Conversation - Biggest Challenges To The Fire Service with Michael Caviness

Transcript

WEBVTT

00:00:02.386 --> 00:00:05.192
Sometimes the best conversations happen after the show.

00:00:05.192 --> 00:00:10.603
Here's what happens when we turn the mic back on for one of those conversations with Michael Kavanis.

00:00:10.603 --> 00:00:18.867
Also, please note that Eric started with the question what is the biggest obstacle in fire service faces in the state of North Carolina?

00:00:21.181 --> 00:00:29.711
The biggest obstacle that I see in the state is our man.

00:00:29.711 --> 00:00:31.893
This is a hot seat here.

00:00:31.893 --> 00:00:46.908
People aren't going to like this answer, but I believe it comes down to we have bad fire chiefs that run people off that don't understand.

00:00:46.908 --> 00:00:49.273
They think certification is required.

00:00:49.273 --> 00:00:54.691
What's required is training and they don't understand certification.

00:00:54.691 --> 00:01:01.029
So they liked it At the office, at the state fire marshal's office.

00:01:01.590 --> 00:01:12.191
I'd walk into a department and then tell these guys what training they're supposed to do and I would stand there and say did you know that your fire chief can check you off?

00:01:12.191 --> 00:01:16.730
They're the authority having jurisdiction and they can do everything.

00:01:16.730 --> 00:01:19.225
All training can be done right here in this station.

00:01:19.225 --> 00:01:21.811
And their eyes get real big.

00:01:21.811 --> 00:01:25.048
They start looking at the fire chief and the fire chief says thank you, you can get out.

00:01:26.540 --> 00:01:28.426
But it comes down to a lot of times.

00:01:28.426 --> 00:01:29.930
It's all about leadership.

00:01:29.930 --> 00:01:34.570
It's all about knowing there's some lazy fire chiefs.

00:01:34.570 --> 00:01:41.783
If you're running a certification and that's all you do at your station, you're not running a training program.

00:01:41.783 --> 00:01:48.671
You're running a certification program and that's not the level of training you should be at.

00:01:48.671 --> 00:01:53.750
You should either be well above or well below, if that makes sense.

00:01:53.750 --> 00:01:57.808
Yes, certification is an inch deep and a mile wide.

00:01:57.808 --> 00:02:03.111
Okay, it covers all the basics for liability for that fire chief.

00:02:03.111 --> 00:02:06.484
That's why fire chiefs do that and I understand that part.

00:02:06.484 --> 00:02:25.514
But if I take you out and teach you a two or three hour ladders class hands on, teach you all the parts of it, how to properly care for it, how to put it up, how to climb, how to use that works the same as the old OSFM sponsored fire rescue commission class on ladders.

00:02:25.514 --> 00:02:28.082
It is that I don't know.

00:02:28.082 --> 00:02:31.972
Would that take 15 hours for that ladders class Something?

00:02:31.991 --> 00:02:32.252
like that.

00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:35.288
You can go out in the back of your everybody's got a ladder.

00:02:35.288 --> 00:02:40.747
You can go out and throw it up against the side of the building, work on it different ways and that counts exactly.

00:02:40.747 --> 00:02:47.171
If you document it, it works exactly the same way as having that certification credit.

00:02:47.171 --> 00:02:50.627
And you just can't get that.

00:02:50.627 --> 00:02:55.449
So that's what I see as the biggest problem with training is.

00:02:55.449 --> 00:03:02.026
We are so reliant upon certifications in the state that it is needed.

00:03:02.026 --> 00:03:05.211
All paid firefighters, it's a requirement.

00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:07.242
But in a lot of places.

00:03:07.824 --> 00:03:10.431
It's just they need training, quality training.

00:03:10.431 --> 00:03:16.204
They need people not to be lazy, they need to be led, they need to be trained.

00:03:16.204 --> 00:03:27.627
I had a great chief he just Kyle Dixon just made 20 years at Franklinville fire department and he he can call him a lot of things, but he's not lazy.

00:03:27.627 --> 00:03:40.366
The man made us get out there and we trained from seven to 10 every Monday night, and it didn't matter about certifications at that point we trained because that's what we need to do.

00:03:40.366 --> 00:03:41.140
Oh, you need to.

00:03:41.140 --> 00:03:45.412
You need to figure out how to pull up on an apartment load or whatever.

00:03:45.412 --> 00:03:49.826
Where you're, you're disconnecting work, we're pulling way off in the distance.

00:03:49.826 --> 00:03:51.343
How are you going to do that?

00:03:51.343 --> 00:03:56.091
We went out and tried different things and figured out what worked for us.

00:03:56.941 --> 00:04:02.787
Yeah, and you were good at it and for the most part, hopefully.

00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:09.699
Some of us would be good at it, some of us wouldn't, but yes, you know and what you were just saying.

00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.326
You know people get so reliant on that piece of paper.

00:04:13.326 --> 00:04:19.262
You know that it's a safety net, you know, or they just push that.

00:04:19.262 --> 00:04:22.968
You need certification, you need certification, you need certification.

00:04:22.968 --> 00:04:29.165
Well, I know a lot of people that hold the certification, but it doesn't make him good at what they do.

00:04:29.165 --> 00:04:33.000
You know, you gotta get out there and you gotta work.

00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:35.668
And here's another quality part of it.

00:04:36.196 --> 00:04:39.281
What sets my community college apart is my FTEs.

00:04:39.281 --> 00:04:41.487
The both of my FTEs are not certification.

00:04:42.295 --> 00:04:48.225
That was going to be my follow-up question was what is the ratio?

00:04:48.225 --> 00:04:50.367
Or, you know, is there?

00:04:50.367 --> 00:05:09.726
I guess there's probably not really a sweet spot between certification and non-certification style classes, but your community college in particular, what do you think that ratio is between certification versus other fire trainings that you guys put together?

00:05:11.997 --> 00:05:14.201
We are probably our FTE total.

00:05:14.201 --> 00:05:24.365
We probably get 30 to 40 percent of our FTE total out of certification classes, but we primarily deal in in-service training.

00:05:24.365 --> 00:05:25.627
That's the big thing.

00:05:25.627 --> 00:05:44.882
One of the things that I did when I first came in was I established, I went and I got every chief, tried to get every chief and every training officer on the payroll and let them know hey, I will pay you to do what you've been doing for free, for free, every single day at the firehouse.

00:05:44.882 --> 00:05:45.485
Yes.

00:05:45.915 --> 00:06:06.245
And that anybody that works for a community college needs to be listening to this with their ears wide open right now, because that is a way, especially for a smaller community college, to be creating those FTEs and unfortunately, a lot of colleges are not doing that.

00:06:06.714 --> 00:06:10.163
That is cheap training, if that makes sense, that is cheap training.

00:06:10.163 --> 00:06:11.005
That's being done.

00:06:11.005 --> 00:06:13.552
We're just capturing the training.

00:06:14.235 --> 00:06:14.334
Yes.

00:06:14.495 --> 00:06:15.817
We are logging the training.

00:06:15.817 --> 00:06:23.970
That requires work and then it requires it requires a lot of you just have to stay on it.

00:06:23.970 --> 00:06:26.560
The paperwork is not going to come back all perfect here.

00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:27.762
You know it's going to be.

00:06:27.762 --> 00:06:31.177
They may a volunteer department may only have three people.

00:06:31.177 --> 00:06:35.165
This week, they may have 15 next if they average.

00:06:35.165 --> 00:06:48.759
If they average 10 they like here the departments do, every other week as far as training, or twice a month and if you'll average 10 people per training or whatever what that does, because that is cheap training.

00:06:48.759 --> 00:07:03.410
If a department it allows me leeway because we are making money off of it and therefore when a expensive class comes in, I can give, I can say yes easier if that makes sense.

00:07:03.795 --> 00:07:07.687
You're reading my mind because I was just going to mention that specific thing.

00:07:07.687 --> 00:07:19.565
You start making that money on the, the daily training activities that these fire departments are doing when they have a a big specialty style class.

00:07:19.565 --> 00:07:26.129
Or you're gonna farm somebody in To come do a weekend program or something like that and it's gonna cost.

00:07:26.129 --> 00:07:27.692
It's gonna cost some bucks.

00:07:27.692 --> 00:07:29.646
You know that's not gonna be free.

00:07:29.646 --> 00:07:30.488
Guess what?

00:07:30.488 --> 00:07:37.033
You've been padding that or you've been working up to that point and you're gonna be able to put that specialty class on.

00:07:37.980 --> 00:07:43.033
It allows me to bring in Raymond Cormick in a couple weeks right or in September.

00:07:43.033 --> 00:07:45.524
We just names that.

00:07:45.524 --> 00:07:48.170
You hear Aaron Fields will come later this year.

00:07:48.952 --> 00:07:50.255
It's nozzle forward yeah.

00:07:50.661 --> 00:07:51.723
Yeah, to be able to.

00:07:51.723 --> 00:07:55.771
They they come, those are big names and they come with a price tag.

00:07:55.771 --> 00:08:01.226
They're in demand and they and they really are there.

00:08:01.226 --> 00:08:08.449
They're Magnetic speakers, people are drawn to them and but it's not about making money.

00:08:08.449 --> 00:08:10.959
It's what our entities ask for.

00:08:12.182 --> 00:08:16.052
Right and and but there is a financial model there.

00:08:16.052 --> 00:08:27.786
So every that the other stuff helps me, and so that's looking at it from a strategic standpoint and Trying to say you know, looking, I had the leeway.

00:08:27.786 --> 00:08:30.853
Not all depart, not all community colleges look at it same way.

00:08:30.853 --> 00:08:41.426
There are some colleges in the state that will say if you do not have 10 people in this class, you shut that class down, and so what?

00:08:41.466 --> 00:08:42.828
exactly what you're talking about.

00:08:43.530 --> 00:08:50.561
Those are my best advertisers, because we do not cancel classes Does.

00:08:50.561 --> 00:08:53.327
We do everything in our power not to cancel a class.

00:08:53.327 --> 00:08:56.822
I don't care if two people show up, we will run that.

00:08:56.822 --> 00:08:58.907
If one person shows up, we will.

00:08:58.907 --> 00:09:00.649
We will try to do what we can.

00:09:00.649 --> 00:09:07.120
We will teach it to them and then we also allow people to show up, even if it's not the first day.

00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:12.419
I don't, I can't count them, but they're gonna get the hours and we'll send in their certification stuff.

00:09:12.419 --> 00:09:15.086
I get no FT's off of that, I don't care.

00:09:15.086 --> 00:09:17.011
They needed the training.

00:09:18.980 --> 00:09:28.200
That's awesome, so I'm glad to hear that so can I ask kind of a follow-up question to that and sometimes the B-roll conversations are the best.

00:09:29.923 --> 00:09:31.446
My follow-up question to that?

00:09:32.168 --> 00:10:05.822
I was in fire officer three a while back and we were talking about Education and you know there is a line between training and then working toward your degree and the point that this battalion chief was making was the fact that the fire service in general has become so obsessed, like you mentioned, with certifications and you know, do you have this piece of paper, do you have something that says you know how to do TR to this level?

00:10:06.631 --> 00:10:15.441
But he also brought that back around and he said you know, there are so many certifications and so many people have them they're almost devalued now.

00:10:15.441 --> 00:10:26.513
And he mentioned, like you know, how many people have an associates degree in like fire protection technology, whether it be a bachelor's in fire administration.

00:10:26.513 --> 00:10:28.017
He said there's really no value.

00:10:28.017 --> 00:10:32.350
We need to be guiding firefighters away from that.

00:10:32.350 --> 00:10:51.392
And I thought that was kind of a weird way to express that because if you learn what you're doing and if you get good at it and you see you're going to make a life out of it, you know, go as far as you can in learning and education never hurts anybody, but I didn't know how you felt about comments like that.

00:10:52.553 --> 00:11:07.711
That is like a that's a touchy subject right there To say, to say, to tell somebody to stop learning or stop that learning is not worth anything, that certification is not doing you any good.

00:11:07.711 --> 00:11:09.995
I mean, how many times were you told that?

00:11:10.356 --> 00:11:11.679
years ago Well.

00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:18.519
I think he was aiming no good, I think he was aiming more toward the more toward, like the degree side of it.

00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:21.692
Okay, as opposed to the training part of it.

00:11:21.933 --> 00:11:23.097
I will tell you degrees.

00:11:23.097 --> 00:11:34.147
So the fire protection technology degree that we run the FPT program is is not for a beginning firefighter, exactly.

00:11:34.147 --> 00:11:35.269
That's something different.

00:11:35.269 --> 00:11:37.815
So people go to a four-year college.

00:11:37.815 --> 00:11:44.298
So if you're a nurse, typically, and you're going to get your BSN, you would go, or an engineer.

00:11:44.298 --> 00:11:48.210
You don't go get experience in it and then go that they don't.

00:11:48.210 --> 00:11:52.182
Let you start as an engineer at NASA and then you go to college and get something.

00:11:52.182 --> 00:11:58.538
But so you go, you learn these concepts and the theoretical and then you put it in.

00:11:59.078 --> 00:12:10.215
But in the FPT program, where we, you are taught these skills ahead of a matter of fact, you can start a volunteer department with zero skills and be a firefighter that night.

00:12:10.215 --> 00:12:12.860
You know you can start that.

00:12:12.860 --> 00:12:14.264
You spilled out the application.

00:12:14.264 --> 00:12:16.596
They put you on your, your firefighter that night.

00:12:16.596 --> 00:12:24.975
But the education piece for us, for FPTR, is about fire protection management really.

00:12:24.975 --> 00:12:31.636
So it's a really captain and above that it even I don't even know how much it benefits captains.

00:12:31.636 --> 00:12:33.283
I want literary captains.

00:12:33.283 --> 00:12:36.394
I want them to be able to read, I want them to be able to write good reports.

00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:37.679
Right.

00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.631
And so that's what the program probably helps you more than anything.

00:12:41.631 --> 00:12:46.748
We have a saying that every, everything is workforce development.

00:12:46.748 --> 00:12:49.554
That's what we're trying to gear the college towards.

00:12:49.554 --> 00:12:51.259
Even even an English class.

00:12:51.259 --> 00:12:52.623
How does that help?

00:12:52.623 --> 00:12:56.256
Well, well, they have to be able to read, interpret data.

00:12:56.256 --> 00:13:01.034
They have to be able to write well, because we're writing legal documents.

00:13:01.095 --> 00:13:18.504
every time we fill out a fire report, that could be a potential legal document, and you want that written fairly well, and so that's where workforce development, trying to get those skills I have trouble with anybody saying I think that is an older mentality.

00:13:18.504 --> 00:13:21.255
That I do think is is starting to go away.

00:13:21.255 --> 00:13:24.725
I think what that guy meant was there needs to be value in it.

00:13:24.725 --> 00:13:32.235
Ok, that's what he's you know what is the value, and we should all ask that what is the value of a certification?

00:13:32.235 --> 00:13:35.225
Are there too many certified firefighters running around?

00:13:35.225 --> 00:13:36.909
It depends.

00:13:36.950 --> 00:13:40.240
It depends how many firefighters can do their job.

00:13:41.143 --> 00:13:41.364
Right.

00:13:41.364 --> 00:13:42.267
What does that mean?

00:13:42.267 --> 00:13:47.677
And yeah, tell my instructors, you are judged by the worst student you pass.

00:13:47.677 --> 00:13:54.498
The worst person to come out of your program will always be how your program is judged.

00:13:54.498 --> 00:13:57.303
That's why it comes across as worthless.

00:13:57.303 --> 00:14:00.855
If you're giving it away, it is worthless.

00:14:00.855 --> 00:14:07.793
We probably fail about as much as any of our other college around.

00:14:07.793 --> 00:14:10.802
They get to us and we do not.

00:14:10.802 --> 00:14:13.029
We hold the line, I hold the line.

00:14:13.029 --> 00:14:15.515
Of mind struck back the instructors.

00:14:15.515 --> 00:14:21.440
I make sure that if you come out of this, you've got a pretty reasonable chance.

00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:29.104
At least the day you did it you could do the skills, because that's what I preach at them nonstop do skills.

00:14:29.683 --> 00:14:30.865
We do get rusty though.

00:14:31.446 --> 00:14:34.211
Yeah, but firefighter is a skill based performance.

00:14:34.211 --> 00:14:35.756
It is not.

00:14:35.756 --> 00:14:39.913
You know, eric, you ever show up on a fire and get asked a multiple choice question.

00:14:40.950 --> 00:14:44.318
No, sir, it's not the way it works, it's the way we test.

00:14:44.318 --> 00:14:47.442
But it has nothing to do with the rest.

00:14:47.442 --> 00:15:01.701
So it's all about how you use those skills and trying to get to that point, and so pattern recognition, when to do things, why experience matters, it's all, but it all comes together.

00:15:01.701 --> 00:15:03.780
Experience is sort of education.

00:15:03.780 --> 00:15:05.440
You know the new person.

00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:10.399
I remember going and being terrified at Burlington I would have to cook for 12 people.

00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:17.288
And education, the training that I received there, taught me how to be able to do that.

00:15:17.288 --> 00:15:17.655
I can.

00:15:17.655 --> 00:15:19.582
I can say, okay, there's 12 people.

00:15:19.582 --> 00:15:21.721
I know I need about a half pound of meat per person.

00:15:21.721 --> 00:15:23.698
We need this many potatoes.

00:15:23.698 --> 00:15:25.884
The serving size on the back don't mean jack.

00:15:25.884 --> 00:15:27.460
You know double that.

00:15:27.460 --> 00:15:31.443
You learn those things as you go and I became competent at it.

00:15:31.443 --> 00:15:33.178
Firefighting is the same.

00:15:34.375 --> 00:15:35.018
And it is.

00:15:35.018 --> 00:15:43.421
It goes back to that that age old adage of you know, 10 years on the job doesn't equate to 10 years of experience.

00:15:43.421 --> 00:15:46.317
You know what?

00:15:46.317 --> 00:15:48.903
What have you done with that 10 years that you've been on the job?

00:15:48.903 --> 00:15:53.546
You know, are you one of those guys that's not doing a whole lot, you doing the bare minimum?

00:15:53.546 --> 00:15:58.807
Are you one of those hard charters that's out there working every day to perfect what you're doing?

00:15:58.807 --> 00:16:01.482
And so, yeah, I agree with you.

00:16:02.235 --> 00:16:05.904
When you see some of the kids and I do I do think in my head sometimes.

00:16:05.904 --> 00:16:10.919
I see them and I'm like you need to slow down, you need to, but you don't want.

00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:12.945
I never want to kill their enthusiasm.

00:16:12.945 --> 00:16:19.919
They're very enthusiastic, they're spouting off the mouth, they're young, they're full of energy.

00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:28.687
But this, the saying you can always steer you can't steer a parked car right, that's love.

00:16:28.687 --> 00:16:29.749
That's not moving at all.

00:16:29.749 --> 00:16:33.365
You can't do anything with them until you get them moving.

00:16:33.365 --> 00:16:34.817
That kid that you can.

00:16:34.817 --> 00:16:36.363
You can slow them down.

00:16:36.363 --> 00:16:38.279
You can't give them initiative.

00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:40.197
That's all from within.

00:16:40.197 --> 00:16:48.297
So as much as I want to say stuff, sometimes I've really, I really bite my tongue and say you know what?

00:16:48.297 --> 00:16:51.817
We were all like that and they will learn.

00:16:51.817 --> 00:16:57.936
Or at least I'm sorry, the good firefighters were like that, they were brash, they were.

00:16:57.936 --> 00:17:00.442
You don't know what, you don't know.

00:17:00.442 --> 00:17:03.048
You say too much.

00:17:03.048 --> 00:17:04.200
You think you know more.

00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:10.266
I can remember going in my first early fires and not knowing enough to be scared.

00:17:12.557 --> 00:17:13.161
Absolutely.

00:17:14.115 --> 00:17:14.817
And that's.

00:17:14.817 --> 00:17:17.268
I just did not know enough.

00:17:18.835 --> 00:17:21.642
Yeah, you look back and you say, holy crap, we were doing what.

00:17:22.784 --> 00:17:23.385
Bulletproof.

00:17:23.385 --> 00:17:25.319
I was absolutely bulletproof.

00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:27.357
You've come in behind me.

00:17:27.357 --> 00:17:31.559
Chimney fell, just all kinds of things, and you know people are screaming.

00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:34.080
Did not know enough to be scared.

00:17:34.603 --> 00:17:36.761
Yep, just enough to be dangerous.

00:17:36.761 --> 00:17:48.683
Yep, well, I I greatly appreciate you answering those those follow questions and again being here with us tonight.

00:17:48.683 --> 00:17:51.547
If anybody has any questions for you, michael, what?

00:17:51.547 --> 00:17:53.778
What is the easiest way for them to get in touch with you?

00:17:54.934 --> 00:18:00.896
It's always email um just because, like today, I was in meetings one meeting all day, so it's just.

00:18:00.896 --> 00:18:02.826
I can check emails during meetings.

00:18:02.994 --> 00:18:08.722
And, just like you said before you, you just now saw my, my voicemail from last Wednesday.

00:18:08.722 --> 00:18:10.986
Yes, I'm terrible, answer the phone, you slow.

00:18:10.986 --> 00:18:15.458
Texting too, I am, I am slow, so what, uh, what's your?

00:18:15.518 --> 00:18:26.905
email Emails Michaelcavenus at rcccedu About gave my DOI email address, but it's rcccedu.

00:18:28.715 --> 00:18:41.185
And, you see, we, we will have some unfiltered content like this that will be available to those folks that uh so choose to hear, and this will be a special additional episode that has dropped.

00:18:41.185 --> 00:18:44.661
So if you're here in this, consider yourself very fortunate.

00:18:44.661 --> 00:18:47.226
Okay, thank you, michael.

00:18:47.226 --> 00:18:47.906
We appreciate it.

00:18:47.906 --> 00:18:48.949
We appreciate it.

00:18:49.075 --> 00:18:58.423
I have a very unfiltered, unfiltered opinion there and I don't, I don't, I'm careful about that, but, um, that is, I'm a firmly it's necessary information.

00:18:59.105 --> 00:19:00.347
Yeah, absolutely.

00:19:01.258 --> 00:19:03.574
We'll let you listen to it before we drop it.

00:19:03.574 --> 00:19:13.983
Yeah, all right, you have been listening to all clear presented by the North Carolina firefighter cancer alliance and the first responders peer support network.

00:19:13.983 --> 00:19:20.218
All clear is written and produced by Travis McGathey and Eric Stevenson and recorded on Riverside FM.

00:19:20.218 --> 00:19:26.183
Opinions and views expressed by guests Do not necessarily reflect the views of the podcast.

00:19:26.183 --> 00:19:31.257
Please subscribe and rate us on your podcast app of choice and we'll see you soon.

Bonus After Show Conversation - Biggest Challenges To The Fire Service with Michael Caviness

Listen On

Featured Episodes

Recent Episodes

New to All Clear - A Firefighter Wellness Podcast?